Curse

Ghull Ka · Dec 09, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefighter Fred

For the first time in quite a while I wasnt able to complete content running my standard E/W bar (ie. it wasnt stupidly easy). That alone made WiK enjoyable

Slightly offtopic, but I'm now curious... what's your standard E/W bar?

Lasai · Dec 10, 2010, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I feel all of it has been sloppily implemented. The difficulty and varied skills of the White Mantle was fine.. but no forethought was given to the limited group size and utter uselessness of the available NM proph heroes.

Loot and rewards.. ugh. This should have been on a factional/rank system like EoTN.. not based upon miniscule % of getting anything worth having. 100g noob scrolls and 1pt sweets are not adequate rewards for the effort required to gain Royal Gifts. Farming trash mobs in Pre pays off better. It's sad that in order to make the lackluster Oppressor weapons even remotely desirable they had to add them to HOM point earning.

No forethought was given as to unlocking the content. I would have liked a yes/no trigger.. something I DECIDED rather than the new mobs showing up simply because I finished Proph two years ago. I do not want to do this over and over again simply to clear the areas of WIK mobs on every char.

I won't do Hearts of the North at all. I didn't roll a Kieran, don't want to play one, and didn't work on developing my Chars, skills, and equipment to play a canned skillset on a canned char. Forcing this system upon us absolutely kills any enjoyable replayability.

As far as a lead in to GW2.. honestly.. you plan to destroy my chosen homeland, Elona, destroy my Sunspears... and then expect me to somehow give a rats patoot about Psycho Gwen and her Doormat? No amount of missions would ever make me care.

Personally.. I think the Play as Kieran thing was more about ease to develop rather than innovative story line. One canned skillset was far quicker to implement than the myriad of profession bars would have been.

StormX · Dec 10, 2010, 07:57 AM // 07:57

I liked being able to one-shot mobs as Thackeray. That was cool. Idc about the white mantle stuff. Poor rewards, long and annoying quest lines. I've only completed WiK on one char and cba to do it again. Besides all those white mantle infesting the countryside can't be good for tourism.

dancing gnome · Dec 10, 2010, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

Lastly in this vein, I want to suggest that the lack of rewards for playing through WiK on HM (bar Wanted quests) is disappointing. I'm glad that ANet has suggested that they want to fix this in future content updates, but it's still saddening that they won't retroactively apply it to WiK.

I can't stand alternating rewards for NM and HM. People complain content is too easy but refuse to do HM because the rewards are not increased. If you are going to complain about how easy something is in NM before you've tried HM, the solution is right in front of you.

Either you want a greater challenge completing HM (because you enjoy it) or you want to complete HM not because you enjoy it but because you want a greater reward.

I personally hate HM. I have done every mission in the game in HM (hero/hench) and vanquished all of Elona, parts of Cantha and half of Tyria so I'm not incapable of completing content in HM by any stretch of the imagination. I've also cleared most end game elite areas (including DoA and Slavers) in HM.

Why do I hate HM? Because it shoe horns me into a more difficult experience which I won't enjoy simply because it has greater reward. I can't play with the build I want to play or the party mix up I want to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wiki: Guide to Hard Mode

As a rule of thumb, only the most efficient PvE builds will do for hard mode. Many sub-optimal builds are still able to complete the normal mode missions; however, hard mode is less forgiving. Also, while using one general-purpose build for all areas might do for normal mode, in hard mode it becomes much more important to adapt your build to the special situation at hand. Check beforehand on the type of enemies you will be facing (melee or casters? hex- or condition overload?) and alter your build accordingly.

It's perfectly fine for content like this to exist in the game for people who want to play like that, but for those of us who like to bring our spear chuck ranger or Melandru's Resilience beastmaster warrior, why should we feel the need to alter our builds and play styles simply to complete content in a play style we enjoy less because we get less reward (are punished) for choosing NM. The NM rewards when these two are split are forgettable at best, hell the HM rewards for most bounties were forgettable.

Either you want to complete HM content because you enjoy a greater challenge and take the same reward or you simply want more loot. If you truly want a greater challenge because that's what you enjoy, do it on HM simply for the greater challenge, they shouldn't have to throw in more rewards. Why do NM players have to settle for less because some people don't care about marginalised niche encouraging game design? Don't reward people for bringing sabway and pvx wiki build mentalities, reward us all for having fun - it's a game after all.

Hyper Cutter · Dec 12, 2010, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I never bothered with WiK content because of how horrendously unbalanced the enemies are for where you find them if you're by yourself.

Why am I fighting near-Slaver's-level super-mobs in a 6-man area where the henchmen are level 10-12, again?

Coast · Dec 12, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Too bad theres no scenes that u can skip.
That's what i don't like about it.

Daesu · Dec 25, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

The Hearts of the North quests are getting too long and too much of the solo quests is bad. You dont get to play GW as you would normally play it.

Besides I have 16 PvE characters, which means I have to do 4*16 = 64 solo quests. Previously, I could always team up both my accounts to complete them in half the time, but I can't do that with solo quests.

MithranArkanere · Dec 25, 2010, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

I never bothered with WiK content because of how horrendously unbalanced the enemies are for where you find them if you're by yourself.

Why am I fighting near-Slaver's-level super-mobs in a 6-man area where the henchmen are level 10-12, again?

They are not supermobs. They are super fun.
It's no longer "target the one with the monk name, nuke, get rid of the rest". With them, you actually have to see their skills and change your strategy accordingly.
Is the Priest a smiter or a healer? The mesmer is healing? Sabannah Heat savant! Who is resurrecting them?
Go to the Anguish, THOSE are the bad designed ones. Just big numbers and nothing else.

Now... as for how to deal with WiK enemies, there are many ways.
But first, you must remember than only two henchmen are worth it around there.
ONLY TWO: Dunham and Claude
They strip enchantments, get rid of hexes, interrupt and and give energy to your party. Claude's soul leech takes care of enemy healers at incredible speed. you'll understand it when facing a Word of Healing Sycophant.
The rest of henchmen suck, never pick any of them. Never. Specially the warriors. Bringing a melee is bringing problems.
I've made all mursaat quests in NM with those two in levels 10..15, only had problemas with my warrior. I had to join player parties for EVERYTHING in WiK with my warrior, and if heroes were used, I didn't bring any, otherwise they'll chase me around instead doing their jobs.
The inquisitor ones were done in HM. Lovisa was specially easy, again with all but my warrior.
I still have to make them with dervish and assassin, and I probably won't unless AI is fixed. I have 7 Thackerays and my paragon is going for the 8th. And only the warrior had trouble so far. It was specially easy for my ritualist, elementalist and necromancer.
My elementalist even made the battle in a party of 1(3) before they made it easier.

Once you have those two henchmen, all you need is 3 decent heroes.

You'll have to experiment to find something that works for you.
For me, panic works with big mobs,but in WiK you will usually face 3..6 enemies at a time, and 1/3 of them will move around as melee. That's why psychic instability is better here. One blinding surge, one healing monk, and whatever you wanna be... excepting a melee.
Caster, SoS, spears or bows, but never melee weapons.

Why not melee?
Well... I'm afraid that won't work with h/h.
Anyone that has ever played both caster and melee knows it. A melee character can't really use heroes properly. They may manage, and even succeed, but they will always work way worse than when there's no melee in the party.

Monsters won't get too close if you are outside range, since H/H aggro bubbles are smaller, and as soon as they see a player, they'll gain the incredible power to see the entire party in the radar. When they see heroes or henchmen, they only see those they have in range.
When I'm a caster, I can throw a vanguard assassin and that's all the melee I'll ever need.

When I'm a melee, I can flag the heroes half radar away, and the monsters will still ignore me and go directly to them. And it's not funny when H/H decide that they NEED so hard to be behind me that they'll cross the enemy lines if I turn my back to them, ignoring the fight in the process.
It's as if someone was controlling my flag and flagging them all over the place.

And don't even think about putting a flag yourself. They won't stay around there moving properly, instead they'll do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRo04mu-ag
♪ All this will I do if you'll ma... ♪
Ahem... catchy tune...

Anyways... As long as there is no melee involved, you should be fine with H/H even in there, it you still find it hard, it only takes practice to get the knack of it.

Fay Vert · Dec 25, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

When I'm a melee, I can flag the heroes half radar away, and the monsters will still ignore me and go directly to them.

This is expected behaviour and how agro works. If you don't want the mobs to fight your party then make sure that the agro bubble of your heroes doesn't overlap with your agro bubble. If it does, that bridge will cause mobs to treat you all as a threat and will attack who they choose. You can get them to ball up and get agro on you first and then bring heroes in if you want to tank. Alternatively, look to pull mobs near a wall where you can body block them to keep them away from your back lines.

Mark Nevermiss · Dec 25, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Its kinda odd; the only one of my characters that I managed to finish BLA (before change), using only three heroes, was my warrior using 100b.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9329/gw004a.jpg

MithranArkanere · Dec 25, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

This is expected behaviour and how aggro works. If you don't want the mobs to fight your party then make sure that the aggro bubble of your heroes doesn't overlap with your aggro bubble. If it does, that bridge will cause mobs to treat you all as a threat and will attack who they choose. You can get them to ball up and get aggro on you first and then bring heroes in if you want to tank. Alternatively, look to pull mobs near a wall where you can body block them to keep them away from your back lines.

Half radar away, their aggro bubbles, which are smaller than mine, are far enough so they'll won't overlap with mine even if they were as big as mine, since the radar range's diameter is longer than 5 times the aggro bubble's.
That's no bridge. That's a wormhole, XD.
When I'm melee, even if I manage to keep them around me with things like Aura of Thorns or Grasping earth before bringing the rest of the party back, as soon as the rest of the party gets closer, they'll ignore me and go for them.
Even if you bring a melee H/H, they don't do that when you are not close, they stick to what you bring them in the front as long as no player gets too close, being it a Vanguard Asassin, a minion, a melee summon or a W henchman. Also, henchman kite properly and stick around without spreading too much or bunching up too much, while they move like ants when you step on an ant hill when you are melee.
I've even tried using a warrior with SoS and a staff, and they behave properly in that case.

jazilla · Dec 25, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I really enjoyed the new content. I totally did all of it as it was being updated so sometimes it got a little frustrating trying to find everything, but all turned out alright in the long run and I didn't have to use the wiki.

The combat has been the best part of the GW:B so far. I love the skill bars of the enemies. I really liked Keiran's bar as well. The weapons were top notch: Law and Order, Alari's Double Blades, Izzy's Balance still makes me LOL.

The stuff that disappointed me about the story was how haphazardly the Seer was thrown into the mix. I think the basics of storytelling got thrown out the window for this one. Also, Blimm and Zinn's "helpful" thing for the BLA was pretty much a huge let down. That could have been worked into some graphically grandiose thing and instead was pretty mundane. We could at least have had GOX go steamroll through the front gate of LA for laughs right and taken out like 30 dudes? If you don't bother to explain everything then why not go whole hog crazy with it? At least that is my take.

(Side note: waiting for people to wake up to open presents on Christmas right now. this post may have been a little long winded

)

Verene · Dec 25, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I liked the new content, though I do agree that they could have done a bit better with how the storyline was actually played out. Cutscenes are difficult, but give me some reasons why these particular Mantle/Mursaat are so despicable. Adjust NPC dialogue a bit, so you hear them talking about rumors they've heard about this or that. And yes, I agree that Salma should have done something to help fight in BLA.

Also, while it was nice that they went the "quality over quantity" for the Mantle and Peacekeepers, once it came to BLA they went right back to "let's make this difficult by jamming as many enemies into this small space as we can". If they wanted to throw a literal army at us like that, the Mantle should have started out with low level mobs and then ramped up the difficulty as we destroyed the cannon fodder and forced their elite fighters to come out and make a stand themselves.

I liked the HotN stuff, though I struggled with it at first before I learned to just let Miku tank and take my sweet time with stuff. And while part of it is about how Gwen realizes she loves Kieran, it's really more about Kieran actually growing up and maturing and being a leader. It's a love story, but that's mixed in with other things.

(and I don't get why people whine about Gwen and call her a shrew or a harpy all the time. She's not some teenage cheerleader who's going to be all "teehee oh my god!" over everything. She's a grown woman who has been through hell and back, has lost just about everything dear to her, and as a result has closed herself off from others and has become extremely determined to make things right herself. Or are people here just scared of strong female characters that are independent and have a mind of their own?)

Lanier · Dec 25, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

(and I don't get why people whine about Gwen and call her a shrew or a harpy all the time. She's not some teenage cheerleader who's going to be all "teehee oh my god!" over everything. She's a grown woman who has been through hell and back, has lost just about everything dear to her, and as a result has closed herself off from others and has become extremely determined to make things right herself. Or are people here just scared of strong female characters that are independent and have a mind of their own?)

Independent women don't have to whine constantly. Gwen is, quite frankly, very annoying, with all the whining and harpying.

Verene · Dec 25, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

But...she really doesn't whine. At all. Standoff-ish, yes. Single-mindedly vicious, at times, yes. Determined to block out anything but her duty, yes. Incredibly angry, yes. But very rarely whiny.

I think a lot of people project the whininess onto her, simply because she is rather cold and single-minded.

jazilla · Dec 25, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

She's a grown woman who has been through hell and back, has lost just about everything dear to her, and as a result has closed herself off from others and has become extremely determined to make things right herself. Or are people here just scared of strong female characters that are independent and have a mind of their own?)

Except for all the parts where she is stamping her feet like a child or pouting, or telling Keiran she doesn't want anything to do with him and then telling him to, "wait, Keiran" and he says, "you have something to say." and she says, "no" and he says, "I didn't think so." Besides all of that juvenile banter on her side and him being really nice to her, you are totally correct. Strong female character? Sorry, but where? When I think strong female in GW I think of Captain Langmar or Melonni.

Daesu · Dec 25, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

(and I don't get why people whine about Gwen and call her a shrew or a harpy all the time. She's not some teenage cheerleader who's going to be all "teehee oh my god!" over everything. She's a grown woman who has been through hell and back, has lost just about everything dear to her, and as a result has closed herself off from others and has become extremely determined to make things right herself. Or are people here just scared of strong female characters that are independent and have a mind of their own?)

I think it is because she seems to be always angry and complaining about stuff, she is rather standoffish. That makes her appear whiny and bitchy.

She is the one with the long dialogues of Keiran being irritating, complaining about his pony tail, etc..etc and ordering him around. If that is not a shrew, I dont know what is. Many guys do despise women like that.

This is why I think the dialogues/storyline may be created by a woman instead, because women tend to look at such behavior as "strong", while most men would look at her very differently.

A11Eur0 · Dec 25, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Half radar away, their aggro bubbles, which are smaller than mine, are far enough so they'll won't overlap with mine even if they were as big as mine, since the radar range's diameter is longer than 5 times the aggro bubble's.
That's no bridge. That's a wormhole, XD.
When I'm melee, even if I manage to keep them around me with things like Aura of Thorns or Grasping earth before bringing the rest of the party back, as soon as the rest of the party gets closer, they'll ignore me and go for them.
Even if you bring a melee H/H, they don't do that when you are not close, they stick to what you bring them in the front as long as no player gets too close, being it a Vanguard Asassin, a minion, a melee summon or a W henchman. Also, henchman kite properly and stick around without spreading too much or bunching up too much, while they move like ants when you step on an ant hill when you are melee.
I've even tried using a warrior with SoS and a staff, and they behave properly in that case.

I think you're just doing it wrong. I rolled everything on my warrior. Did the inquisitors in HM, quests in NM. Took gwen as an int-bot and force-targeted her on the casters. Panic worked well, because I don't care if the melee get skills off most of the time, and the casters tend to stay where they are when aggroed, especially when I'm breaking their backs with my hammer. If I can knocklock one caster, the other ones aren't being targeted by me so they don't kite. I always take an earth warder so my heroes are mostly safe from the melee enemies. I also use an IMS to get into aggro well before my heroes, so I take the brunt of the attack even without flagging them back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think it is because she seems to be always angry and complaining about stuff, she is rather standoffish. That makes her appear whiny and bitchy.

She is the one with the long dialogues of Keiran being irritating, complaining about his pony tail, etc..etc and ordering him around. If that is not a shrew, I dont know what is. Many guys do despise women like that.

This is why I think the dialogues/storyline may be created by a woman instead, because women tend to look at such behavior as "strong", while most men would look at her very differently.

As I've said before..anyone who takes the dialogues between Gwen and Keiran and assigns serious tones to every word has never been in any real meaningful relationship. Having been in a few, and currently a very strong marriage for over a decade, I know how two people interact when they have a strong relationship built around struggle. I assigned a joking, half-crying, enthusiastic and a bit uncomfortable tone of voice to Gwen's dialogue throughout the whole thing. Most of it was that she was pissed at herself for being so bitchy, but loving him for seeing through it and bringing her out of her shell. the whole "complaining about his ponytail" bit is just retarded...she's obviously not dead-serious about that. Put a little laughter into the words and you'll see it for yourself. I also haven't seen any direct orders, ALTHOUGH she's still technically his superior officer.

Xiaquin · Dec 26, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

I know this is an impossible request, but I've been dying for voiced cut scenes, that's one thing I would have loved to see in WiK and HotN. It helps slow down the pace and goes beneath the skin of the characters.

With Gwen, we're missing the emotion in her voice. Imagine if we could fully realize the tortured soul that's trying to understand not only Keiran, but what feelings and emotions are.

ogre_jd · Dec 26, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Also, while it was nice that they went the "quality over quantity" for the Mantle and Peacekeepers, once it came to BLA they went right back to "let's make this difficult by jamming as many enemies into this small space as we can". If they wanted to throw a literal army at us like that, the Mantle should have started out with low level mobs and then ramped up the difficulty as we destroyed the cannon fodder and forced their elite fighters to come out and make a stand themselves.

That's pretty much what they did, really. Remember, as far as the Mursaat are concerned, the White Mantle *are* the cannon fodder...